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nut width 1.650 vs 1.687

 
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brokeguitar



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:19 am    Post subject: nut width 1.650 vs 1.687 Reply with quote

on a modern with a floyd, with .780-.830 neck shape, and 16" straight radius which nut with would be fastest for shred? nut width 1.650 vs 1.687
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DaeniusZ



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't that depend entirely on your play style?

I've heard both sides of the argument

I've tried both and I personally can't tell the different. If I suck then I suck equally on both, neither makes me play better. If I can play something fast and accurately then I can do it on both. If I go between 2 guitars with different nut width then yes I'll notice the difference for maybe 3 to 5 minutes. Once you get used to the guitar I doubt you'll be stopping to worry about nut width. Your brain and hands can adapt to these things pretty quickly

I'm a major Suhr nut (hahaha, pun intended) and I play my Suhrs often so I suppose I'm very accustomed to the 1.65 nut at this point? I do feel most at home with it I guess? But it's not like I go "omg wtf I can't play now" when I pick up my other guitars so I still don't think it matters that much to me personally

YMMV, if you're really that concerned I'd say see if your local dealer has guitars of different nut widths and try them out? Like try an Ibanez or Jackson (which DEFINITELY has the wide nut) vs a Suhr
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brokeguitar



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't the 1.650 make the string spacing slightly more narrow though, which could make it easier to do faster picking when it comes to sweep arpeggios or string skipping?

I know it's only slightly about 1 MM difference, but I was just wondering which would have the advantage in the shred soloing arena.

I am thinking about getting a Modern.
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DaeniusZ



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the narrower spacing would make sweeping and going between strings easier too because you technically travel less distance.

In practice, I don't really notice a difference, it's simply too small of a difference and as I said, your hands get adjusted to the spacing so quickly that unless you're trying to play hundreds of notes per second it doesn't make enough of a difference.

The flip side of the argument from my friends with normal hands is that the narrow spacing actually gets in the way when doing fast scale runs and can cause more sloppy string noises. Same goes with sweeping, the narrow spacing makes their hands feel more "cramped for space" when pressing down the notes for sweeping

So yeah, works for some, doesn't work for some others, and then some other others don't care. YMMV, best to try and compare to see which camp you fall under.
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brokeguitar



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice... you made some good points for both arguments.

I've owned probably every nut width there is, right now though I've only got 3 guitars, the Suhr, a rainsong acoustic, and a godin. I sold all of my other guitars. And I can't remember what the difference felt like, I mean obvisouly it must be very subtle, because it's not like I've ever picked up a guitar before and said you know, I just feel like th width of this nut is affecting my ability to play in a negative way, haha!

But with that said, I can get a little OCD about guitars, especially when there's $4,000+ depending on which finish/top I go with on this custom modern. And, I just know there were a few smal details I may have done differently on my Suhr now that I look back in hindsight, and those things are the following:

1. I would have gotten custom inlays on the fretboard... I did not know they could do this until they were so far along in the order it was too late.

2. I have a 6 screw tremelo on it, and I really never use the tremelo, but I got it on there because I know from experience that even if you don't use a tremelo, it's better to have one because it DOES change the tone of the guitar by just having it on there. With that said, I don't think the tremelo stays in tune that great when you do use it, even with locking tuners. I mean I expect to be able to ABUSE a whammy bar, I mean LITERAALLY ABUSE it, meaning not even trying to be musical, but actually intentionally using the bar so extreme that you are actually INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO GET THE GUITAR TO GO OUT OF TUNE... Even though using a whammy bar isn't in my style or something I'm good at, every now and then I get this wild hair and I wanna try some Steve Vai stuff, well, can't do that on a regular trem. I mean yeah you hear all this stuff about just lube everything and use graphite lead or something, but that seems like a lot of hassle compared to just being able to lock it down on both ends and abuse it all you want.

3. I just can't bond with the ML Singlecoil in the neck... it dosen't seem to excell at a SRV sound, nor does it seem to excell at a Yngwie sound, and certainly can't get any Rhoads tones out of it... (those are my 3 favorite on guitar) so I just feel like it's taking up space for no reason on my guitar, and I'm litterally stuck with it. I should have just went with 2 Aldrich humbuckers, and split them when I want a stratish tone, but I thought this way I chose would give me a more authentic Strat tone and more versatility.... but it dosen't.

4. My classic only has 22 frets.... I chose 22 only because of the stupid ML Single coil I had put in the neck, because 24 frets would have put the neck pickup in the wrong spot to get that classic fender strat tone... but I still didn't get it anyway, so major fail. I really never use those two extra frets very much, sometimes I do though, but not a lot, I think it's just nice to have two extra frets than to not have them, unless you are trying for a pure fender strat tone and need that single coil neck pickup tone. But, having 24 frets just has a much more logical layout of the notes, I like seeing 2 full octaves of notes on each string. And sometimes I don't wanna bend to get that high E, sometimes it's nice just to slide into it or tap it. But another benefit of a 24 fret guitar is it makes the 22nd fret even easier to reach... not that there's a issue reaching any frets on the guitar to begin with thanks to the contoured heel suhr has, but, 24 frets still gives easier access to the 22nd fret even on a contoured heel, easier is easier.

5. My neck profile is 60s C vintage standard .810-.930 but I only chose that because it was the most similar profile to the YJM Fender strat I was playing at the time, and I wanted it to have some meat on it because I was thinking if it was too thin I'd lose some of the beef in that neck single coil for fender SRV tones... however, that ML pickup is nothing at all liike a Texas Special, Fralin Blues, or Lollar Blackface pickup, so it's not giving me an amazing srv blues type tone anyway.... so I figure if it's not gonna give me that, then I'd probably be better off with the thinnest neck possible so I can get the advantage of the speed. So I'm gonna go with the thinnest they offer on the Modern, .780-.830

6. I have a 3 way blade switch on my Suhr, the little tip comes off within a few minutes every time I use it, the metal peice is kinda sharp without the plastic tip, but since I don't like my neckpickup anyway I rarely use the switch. But if I get two Aldrich humbuckers in the modern, I will use the switch very frequently and am thinking maybe if I get a toggle switch instead maybe the plastic tip will stay on better. If not I may have to use superglue. I've never had a guitar before where the plastic tip of the switch comes off all the time so easily.

Out of those 6 things, only 2 of them are really kinda big deals to me, the others are extremely, extremely minor. The biggest issue I have is wishing I had gotten a Aldrich humbucker in the neck. That's the main reason why I am going to get a Modern. The second biggest thing though is I really wish I could have had custom inlays on the fretboard. On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being how big of a deal it is, the single coil issue is a 10, the custom inlay issue is a 7, and all the other issues I mentioned are a 3 or less.

I love the Suhr I have... It's the best guitar I've ever owned, and the tone is the best I've ever heard anywhere.

I just think that with these small tweaks it could be even better.

Then the ONLY thing that might make it even better than that would be if I could get it in 24.75 or whatever scale length the Aura is. I would fucking pay an extra $1,500 just for that one extra option... maybe even more if I saved up for it. Scale length truly is that huge of a deal to me.

(Of course... even after that last statement, I have to add, WHAT IF, I was able to get that guitar in that scale length, what if I did, and it altered the tone so much that I actually ended up preferring the tone I'm getting from the 25.5 scale length??? I mean I guess that could happen! In that case, maybe I don't wanna go short scale, IDK, I'd really need to hear the difference. But, if it was an option, I'd buy two Moderns, both exactly the same other than one being 25.5 and the other a short scale length, then I could know for sure which I like best, and I'd simply sell the one I didn't prefer on Ebay/Reverb.)

I mean after all... there was the time where I used to only want to play hardtail guitars because sense I hate tremelos so much and never usually use them, I thought hardtails would be the best way to go... but after owning many hardtails, as well as paying to have several custom hardtail guitars made for me, I cam to the conclusion that there is a very noticeable tone change in two exact same guitars other than one is tremelo and one is hardtail... and I prefer that tone that only tremelo guitars can get.

When I first got this Suhr, I got it thinking it'd serve a purpose of being half Shred guitar and half Fender guitar.... It's really just a shred guitar though... and you know what else I discovered about myself... I'm really just a shred player who just dabbles in other genres every now and then... So it makes sense for me to get another Suhr and just make it balls out shred guitar only.

I mean when I play SRV style blues anyways I end up sounding more like Yngwie Malmsteen trying to play SRV.... I use a TON of distortion, I play faster, I add lots of shred elements... when I play blues, yes, it sounds like Yngwie playing blues.... its not really blues at that point, it's just a metalhead shredders interpretation of the blues haha! So realizing that, I may as well make my guitar suit my shredding style 100% and totally stop even thinking about or trying to get any type of other tone or use out of it.

I mean when I used to play a stock SRV Fender Strat, when I played it, it sounded EXACTLY like the guitar EVH played back in 1983!

I think I need to give up on things I do not excel at (Blues) and just focus on what just comes naturally to me (instrumental shredding)

I like my guitar to provide me with the least path of resistance to everything. I don't wanna have to fight with it or struggle... I don't wanna have to "work" to get good tone or anything. I want as easy as possible.

When I used to be really obsessed with SRV I used to play a Fender with guages 13-58, and I had very high action, and I used a vibroverb amp and a super reverb amp both turned up to about 7... this was back when i lived in a house and could get away with that kind of volume. I did that because I thought that's what you had to do.... later I realized, it's not really nessacery UNLESS you are trying to be an EXACT clone of SRV... and even then most people in a bar arent going to notice the tonal difference if you are playing like that, or if you are playing through a POD with .008-38 guage strings with action 1/4" off the board.

Shred is just so much easier on the hands and fingers.... and I LOVE a ton of distortion.... my personal tone is very, very similar to those tones I showed of Mark Day. And, I don't play as fast as Yngwie, but it is very hard for me to slow down.... And it's hard for me to play anything that dosen't involve a ton of fingertapping and legato. My playing style is pretty excesive and over the top with all of that.

Getting the perfect custom build though is a learning experience though... I've owned over 100 guitars, I've probably had 5 or 6 guitars custom built for me, I've probably heavily modified about a dozen other guitars.... it's expensive AF figuring out what works best, but it's a mad obsession.

One of the more costly things for me, was just learning I don't like scalloped fretboards... I like them, but they don't like my heavy touch.... I mean I think my touch is not TOO heavy, but I still noticed every now and then a note being pressed too hard. It drove me crazy. I don't wanna spend the next 5 years trying to perfect a technique that has a light enough touch to be able to use a scalloped board. I've tried them twice, with one being the YJM sig, and another being a guitar that I had modified... just couldn't bond with it. The scallops were better on the YJM, but I got rid of it because the high E kept slipping off the board, and I didn't wanna hassle with buying a Callaham bridge to solve that issue. So I didn't keep it more than a month before I sold it and got this Suhr. The thing that finally convinced me to never go the scalloped route AGAIN, is I keep telling myself, the only person that uses a full scallop is YJM, Ritchie Blackmore only uses a half scallop, and Vai only scallops last 4 frets.... So really may as well just say YJM is the only scalloped user, since the other two arent true scalloped. When I look at all my guitar heros that didn't use them, then I realize, having scallops isn't going to improve my vibrato or bending.... that's a MYTH.

But it's a MYTH that is powerful, so powerful that I -almost- got my suhr with scallops, I'm gladd I didn't because that would have cost an extra $1,000 and I would have just had to sold it and taken a major loss.

I obsess over small details... obvisouly... haha!
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DaeniusZ



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh... 6 screw tremolos, the bane of my existence and one of the biggest reasons I sold my YJM lol. I'm sure plenty of people love them, but they sure as hell feel terrible to use for me. If Leo Fender himself ditched that design in favor of the modern 2-post... I'll side with Leo Razz

I think Suhr stopped advertising the custom inlay because they did stop doing them for a while when they were moving factories. I'm happy to hear that they do them again, but I'm sure it'll have significant cost because custom inlays can be a total pain to do for a boutique builder like Suhr.

I personally love the ML. You might want to mess with your rig if you really don't get along with it. ML and Aldrich are extremely different so if you're using the same settings, flipping the switch to the ML definitely would not get you any YJM or SRV or Rhoads or anything close. Speaking of which, didn't Randy only use humbuckers? From the Ozzy records, Randy sounds like he's mostly on the bridge pickup too.

As for 24 fret pickup placement, that's actually one thing you don't have to worry much about! The way Suhr mounts the neck pickups for the Modern is pretty much the same spot as any 22 fret Suhr. Look at your Classic and you can see there is a gap between the neck and the pickup, whereas on a Modern, the pickup is mounted right next to the neck with basically no gap. This was to make sure the neck pickup sounds the same for those who care.

I used to lurk the Anderson forums and for YEARS Tom REFUSED to do 24 frets and denied every request at a 24 fretter because he thought it would screw up the neck pickup sound and it would sound like a middle pickup. After he finally tried it, he actually posted on the forum himself and said there is practically no difference in sound in any real musical situations between the 24 fret and the 22 fret neck pickup positioning because of where he mounted it. Tom said he looked at the Modern extensively for tips on how to do it too. One thing Tom did say was the few times when he was able to pick out the difference with neck humbuckers between 22 and 24 fret, he much preferred the 24 fret sound because it retained the warmth of the neck pickup but got rid of that overtly muddy woolly sound that neck humbuckers can have, and he thought that tiny tiny nudge fixed it. I don't know if John ever said something similar, but seeing as how he started making 24 fretters years before Tom did, and John NEVER sacrifices tone, I would assume that John didn't think the difference was big enough to prevent him from making 24 fretters. As for neck single coil, I'd assume it's the same situation. I'm looking at my Standards and Moderns right now and I'm pretty sure the gap between the neck and the single coil can fit almost 2 more frets in there, so any position shift would be minimal at most.

I definitely would not pick a neck profile for "tone" and "how it would affect the tone of the pickups". If I had to deal with an uncomfortable neck shape, I'd be playing like shit all the time! What tone is there to speak of if I can't even play properly? I'm of the camp "play at your best and you'll get the best tone", certainly not of the camp "fight and wrestle with the instrument because tone".

Now if you really don't like the ML and rather have a humbucker you can always stick some sort of a S-sized humbucker in there. If you know how to do it yourself it's a very cheap mod because you can resell the ML for quite a lot of money.
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brokeguitar



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, like I said, I really suck at using the tremelo bar, so I have never tried to really learn to because it's the hardest thing I ever tried, it' so hard to push and pull the bar to a specific pitch, I don't know how Vai does it. Only thing else that has ever been hard like that for me is trying to play slide guitar, again trying to slide to specific pitches without going too far or not far enough. Thank God we have frets on guitars I guess! haha!! But the sales guy told me since I was unsure of what kind of tremelo to go with, he advised me to just stick with what was on my YJM strat. Which I never messed with the bar on the YJM either, because I only owned it about a month.

I'm thinking of just getting something super simple as a custom inlay, maybe just small Roman Numerals as the fret markers.... or, maybe even something as simple as the Diamond shaped inlays like BC Rich does.

Yeah Randy used Duncan and Distortions and Dimarzio Super Distortion Humbuckers, that was my bad throwing his name in there, not sure why I did that lol. But yes, I have been using the same exact preset in the AxeFX3 tht I use on the Aldrich bridge as I do on the ML neck... that's a good idea though, I should actually make a scene in the Axe3 just dialed in just for the neck pickup... that never occurred to me to do.

Do you feel having a maple flamed top on a Alder body sounds much different from just an Alder body? We are talking about with Mark Day kind of gain as well. Would you be able to hear a difference? Would it be the same? Brighter?
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DaeniusZ



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember either Vai or Satch said in a lesson video somewhere that practicing with the bar is just like practicing string bending. You play the pitch you want to reach, then you dip or pull the bar until you reach the desired pitch. Rinse and repeat until you get the feel of it and can do it consistently and quickly.

I'm definitely the wrong guy to ask when it comes to "does a maple top change the tone" because I would certainly say "not enough that I can tell". I'm sure John or customer service can do a far better job at describing to you what a maple top would do to the tone, or if there is any difference at all.

In my experience, the difference wasn't enough for me to go "that HAS to be the maple top". I've compared basswood vs basswood + maple top. Many say the maple top adds some brightness or whatever but I certainly didn't feel the maple top one was "brighter". I couldn't tell them apart in the first blind test and when I could hear a difference I thought the maple top one had a bit more bottom end so what gives??????????

Now here's something to trip you out. I believe EVERY SINGLE GUITAR is unique and sounds slightly different regardless of specs. I had TWO IDENTICAL Ibanez JEMs and they sounded slightly different! I made sure they had the SAME EXACT pickup height and setup and everything. One had tiny bit more mid range and lower mids, the other had tiny bit more treble and was ever so slightly lower output. They're supposed to be exactly the same! Same wood, same specs, same pickups, same hardware, so what could be different? Variance in pickup winding? Variance in wood being organic material? Who knows man...

So to me the difference between the basswood vs basswood+maple top guitars was about as big as the difference between the 2 identical JEMs... Barely a tad different. That said, I could NOT conclusively say whether the difference came from the maple top or just came from general small difference/variance of each unique guitar.

I'm sure plenty will disagree and say it makes a huge difference especially when unplugged. Well, it's definitely more different when unplugged... but I play hard rock and metal, I play a Marshall, and I LOVE cranking my rig for the glorious sound of rock n roll... so... even if they are very different when unplugged, it's not like I'll ever hear that difference over my Marshall turned to 11 now, would I? Razz

Back to my original point of every guitar being unique, they all sound different through my amp for whatever reason. Identical spec ones sound nearly identical but still different. I own a crap ton of guitars so for me at this point... it's "if it plays well and sounds good and is built with great craftsmanship, it's good and I'll buy it! I don't give a damn if it's made of cardboard or 500000 year old fossil trees"
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arnoldguitar



Joined: 13 Dec 2013
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, I feel very identified with this thread, I just think the way of asking for a modern custom order.
I have spoken with the technical service of suhr and they have helped me a lot although there are things that can not be explained with words and you have to try yourself.
Making a decision between 1,650 and 1,687 is being my biggest war.
To the point that two days ago I bought a suhr modern second-hand only to test the neck (0,780 / 0.830, R-16, 1,687 ")
My first impressions is that if you notice, I may be wrong but I think the difference despite being only a millimeter on the first fret, on the 12th fret I think the difference is greater.
One of my big mistakes is not having kept my previous 1.650 mast suhr, but my budget does not give me to have two suhrs and ask for the custom order.
That's why I think we can help, I leave photographs of the measurements of the guitar 1,687" and if someone can publish the measurements of 1,650" in fret 12 and 24 we would have all the information. Obviously you have to play a time with each neck to know which is the best for you.
I totally agree that less separation in strings equal to more speed but more possibility of unwanted noise, can also negatively influence complex chords such as jazz in which it is easy to accidentally turn off strings and in that case better separated the strings is a benefit.
On the other hand I think it is positive that more separation between strings ends up being more wood in the neck, this can compensate a bit the fine profile( 0.780 / 0.830)

Measurements 1,687" :

First fret :
https://files2.soniccdn.com/images/photos/original/40425.jpg
Twelve fret:
https://files2.soniccdn.com/images/photos/original/40426.jpg
Twenty four fret:
https://files2.soniccdn.com/images/photos/original/40427.jpg


I still need to play a few more days to make a decision
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brokeguitar



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting photos, I agree, I think this will be helpful.

Many people told me I wouldn't notice a difference between a compound radius and a straight 16, but I can tell a difference, I love straight 16" radius, it gives me so much peace of mind.

I don't play many chords other than basic power chords, I play single notes 97% of the time, like Yngwie, just soloing... so I think having strings closer together would be a benefit in my situation.

Guitars are kind of like race cars in a way... differences in these small details of the build may in fact be small, however, sometimes that very small advantage is what helps you to win a race. You only have to be a fraction of a second faster than the other guy to win.
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DaeniusZ



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post, arnoldguitar! You said the exact same thing as quite a few of my friends who prefer the wider nut width. They report much more unwanted accidental string noise as well.

How are you liking the wider nut so far?
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Drew7



Joined: 17 Aug 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Somerville, MA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brokeguitar wrote:
Wouldn't the 1.650 make the string spacing slightly more narrow though, which could make it easier to do faster picking when it comes to sweep arpeggios or string skipping?

I know it's only slightly about 1 MM difference, but I was just wondering which would have the advantage in the shred soloing arena.

I am thinking about getting a Modern.


It's even less than that, actually - with six strings, you're sort of dividing those 42 or 43mm into seven unique "chunks," so each of them will be 1/7mm closer together on a 1.65" nut than a 1.6875" nut. That's the equivalent of about two sheets of standard-weight paper.

43mm is pretty standard for "modern" or shred-oriented guitars - modern American strats and most Ibanez guitars I've played come with this nut width, for example (though I think the Satrianis are an exception at 42mm).

I have two Suhrs, one a seven string, and the other I bought used and would have to go back and actually check the spec sheet to see what the nut thickness is - if it IS 1.65", then I can't say I've ever actually noticed the difference.
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Drew7



Joined: 17 Aug 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Somerville, MA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brokeguitar wrote:

3. I just can't bond with the ML Singlecoil in the neck... it dosen't seem to excell at a SRV sound, nor does it seem to excell at a Yngwie sound, and certainly can't get any Rhoads tones out of it... (those are my 3 favorite on guitar) so I just feel like it's taking up space for no reason on my guitar, and I'm litterally stuck with it. I should have just went with 2 Aldrich humbuckers, and split them when I want a stratish tone, but I thought this way I chose would give me a more authentic Strat tone and more versatility.... but it dosen't.


Your mileage may vary, of course... but I love the ML Standard, it's my favorite singlecoil made by anyone I've ever played, and through a Mesa Mark-V at least I've always thought it does have a surprisingly Yngwie-like vibe for fast single-note lines. Either way, a pickup swap is pretty easy, so if you want to get something else in there - say a YJM Fury - it's pretty easy to do.
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arnoldguitar



Joined: 13 Dec 2013
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I've found where to look for accurate information.

https://g-gotoh.com/international/product-category/tremolo-units

1)This I think corresponds to 1,625 (5/8 "), 41 millimeters Nut Width
In the attached web you can see that there are bridges where the separation between first and sixth string is 52.5 millimeters (Narrow spacing) string spacing is 10.5 millimeters.


2)This I think corresponds to 1,650 (13/20 "), 42mm Nut Width
On the other hand there is the same gotoh 510 with separation between the first and sixth string of 54 millimeters and string spacing is 10.8 millimeters.


3)This is the one that should correspond to 1,687 (11/16 ") 43 mm Nut WidthFinally there is the GE102T series that has space between the first and the sixth string of 56.5 millimeters and string spacing of 11.3 mm

I just hope that if it is not correct someone will correct it


Regarding how you feel, it really makes me feel that it is wider, although I must say that I have become accustomed very quickly and in my balance of priorities is a clean execution ahead of speed. But I do not want to confuse anyone, this can only be decided by oneself, what for one is fine for another, and one measure is not better than another only adapts to your hands better or worse.
So I have already made a decision and my next suhr is going to be 1,687 ", 0.780 / 0.830, R-16
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